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Charlie Melcher:

Hi, I'm Charlie Melcher, founder and director of the Future of StoryTelling, And I'd like to welcome you back to the FoST Podcast. As some of you know, my personal background and other day job is as founder and CEO of Melcher Media, a company renowned for producing beautiful books. So it's a personal pleasure to have as our guest today bestselling author and poet, Kwame Alexander. He's written 21 books and is the recipient of both the Newbery and the Caldecott metals.

Kwame is among the most celebrated children's literature authors of our time, but he almost didn't make it. His breakout book, The Crossover, is an unconventional and deeply poetic verse novel about growing up, told through the lens of two brothers and their love of basketball. Kwame suffered through seemingly endless rejections in his search for a publisher, but through his hard work and perseverance, he eventually got the book published, and it went on to win that year's Newbery medal—considered by many to be the highest honor in children's literature.

Kwame now curates his own imprint at Houghton Mifflin Harcourt, called Versify through which he provides a platform for diverse voices, subjects, and styles in children's literature. Both Kwame's own writing and his work amplifying that of others reflects his ardent belief that the stories we tell our children can not only entertain them, but also empower and inspire them to create a better future for themselves and others. I couldn't be more thrilled to be welcoming Kwame Alexander to this episode of the Future of StoryTelling podcast.

Kwame Alexander, sir, it is such a pleasure to have you on the Future of Storytelling Podcast.

Kwame Alexander:

It's good to be here. You're doing some really amazing stuff. I feel like I have a book of yours that you did with Kobe Bryant. May he rest in peace.

Charlie Melcher:

Yes, it was really an honor to work with him, but thank you. Thank you. You're doing some pretty amazing stuff too. So let me ask you, you are a poet, you're a writer, you're a children's storyteller. I'd love it if you could share the story of when you discovered your voice, that you had a voice.

Kwame Alexander:

It was pretty young. I grew up on the upper West side of New York and my parents were in graduate school at Columbia University. My house was surrounded, it was filled with books. Literature was everywhere. So, my favorite books at that age were the poetry of Langston Hughes. The poetry of Nikki Giovanni, the poetry of Lucille Clifton and the poetry of my favorite poet at age three, Dr. Seuss. And there was a book that I loved reading called Fox in Socks, and I could not put it down. Fox in socks, socks in box. I memorized it. I loved it. I read it nonstop.

So, one day at my daycare, I went to Riverside Daycare at the end of daycare, I built a house out of blocks and this kid in my class came over and he knocked the blocks over. So I was a bit upset, and so I went up to him with the only weapons I had my words, and I said, those were my blocks that you flipped. Lest you want a quick payback, better fix my quick block stack. And the kid started crying. And so when my mom came to school, the teachers were like, "Mrs. Alexander, we have a problem. Your son is arrogant. He intimidates other kids with his words." And my mother said, "Thank you. We teach him to use his words." I couldn't articulate it. But that was a moment, a time in my life where I knew the power of words, the power of using your voice and lifting it for the things that matter.

Charlie Melcher:

Now, I've heard you tell a story also about a day when your father said you were not going to school.

Kwame Alexander:

That was age 11. I lived in Brooklyn, New York. My father was the headmaster of my school. And one day, before we go to school, he says, "We're not going to school", and I'm like, "Yes! This is great. I can stay home." And he says, "No, we're not staying home. We're going to March over the Brooklyn bridge." And after he tells me we're marching against police brutality, which I of course am all for. Obviously I want to help protest that. But in my mind, I believe that the police and the local government Mayor Ed Koch, they're going to open the bridge, and we're all going to fall in and die. That's what my 11 year old mind is thinking. Of course the Brooklyn bridge ain't opening. That's what I thought. And so I cried. I hid under the table and I refused to go. And they dragged me to this March, 3000 people, marching from Brooklyn to Manhattan.

And I'm bawling. I'm crying. And I'm in the front row of this March because my father is the headmaster and we get to the other side and there are police officers on horses and they're in riot gear and their dogs. And I'm just like, this is the end of my life. I'm literally going to die today. And then somebody started singing. We're fired up. Can't take no more. We're fired up. We can't take no more. And then my father started singing and then I started singing, and I just, I stopped crying and I feel grounded. On that bridge in that moment, I feel like I wasn't afraid anymore. I realized this is something I have to do for my own humanity. It got reiterated and reinforced that you have a voice, use it. You have a responsibility to do that.

Charlie Melcher:

So, you went on to become a poet, ultimately, to be best known as an author of children's books. How did you choose to focus on children's literature? What inspired that?

Kwame Alexander:

Well, I had written 13 books of love poems for adults. So I wasn't necessarily thinking about writing for kids. And then my second daughter was born, I had been laid off from my job and so my wife was working and I was at home watching our then one year old and she would cry like babies do. And so I didn't know how to get her to stop crying. So I'd play Ella Fitzgerald. That's all I could think of. Play jazz music. And she was stopped crying. It worked. So, I was listening to a lot of jazz. We were listening to a lot of jazz together and I just got this idea that maybe I would write a story, or a poem about jazz for my daughter. Maybe that next summer I was in a place called Tuscany in a little small town called Ortimino.

And I was with eight other writers. And every morning we'd wake up and we'd walk to this cafe to get croissants and tea. And we passed this farm and on this farm where these roosters who were running around, it almost looked as if they were dancing and always just stopped and sort of looked. And one day I sat down at the cafe and I said, maybe the roosters are dancing. And if they're dancing, they're listening to music. If they're listening to music, then it's going to be jazz. If they're listening to jazz, it's live music. So who's playing live music on the farm.

Well, of course the rooster is going to be playing. So the rooster's playing guitar, it's Acoustic Rooster. And if the rooster's playing, then his cousin can't be far behind, Duck Ellington. Well if Duck's there then of course Mules Davis is going to be there. And then I just get this idea for this children's book about a rooster that starts a jazz band with Duck Ellington, Thelonious Monkey, and Mules Davis. And of course, Ella Finchgerald, and I write it, and within nine months it's published, and it's the beginning of my children's book career.

Charlie Melcher:

Sounds like it should have come with its own soundtrack too.

Kwame Alexander:

Right, right, right, exactly.

Charlie Melcher:

So then you go on to do a ton of children's books. And then the one though that sort of really got all the attention, the most attention, was The Crossover young adult novel. That's the one that won the John Newbery medal for most distinguished contribution to American literature for children. First of all, congratulations, that is an incredible honor.

Kwame Alexander:

Thank you.

Charlie Melcher:

Can you tell me about the origins of that project and also what came from it?

Kwame Alexander:

That's always a great story to tell, as you can imagine, I've told it a lot because like you said, that's the book that has defined my children's book career and really made it possible for me to have a career. And it wasn't even my idea. I was at Jacob Javits Convention Center in New York. I was with some students I'd helped publish a book. They were doing a book signing. And this editor who I'd known from a pretty big publishing company came up to me and she said, "I really love the work you're doing with young people. You should really consider writing a book for young people." And I had never thought about that. And I was like, "That's interesting." And she said, "Well, if you do, you should write it about a boy who plays basketball, and it should be a novel told through poems."

I was like, "Okay, that's a good idea." So that summer I wrote the book and I sent it to her and she rejected it. She was like, "It's not good." And I gave it to her like three times after rewriting it. And each time she just didn't like it. I remember having a phone conversation with her and saying, "What don't you like about it? This is the best thing I've ever written." And she could never tell me what didn't work. She was just, "It just doesn't work." So I went through this rewriting process for about six months, sent the book out to 18 other publishers and they all rejected it. And I'm like, "What's going on?" The universe is testing me like, "Dude, are you really up for this? Do you know what I have in store for you?"

Charlie Melcher:

You're on your hero's Journey. This was your battle with the forces of evil.

Kwame Alexander:

That's it. That's it. And so I rewrote it another time. And then I got an agent, I got one of the biggest agents for writers and felt like, "Okay, this is it. This is the big moment for me." I had told the agent, I want to sell this novel. This is my most important thing. And the agent was like, "Cool." And so for the next year and a half, he kept telling me we were getting more rejections, more rejections. I'm just feeling kind of bad. And I'm like, "Maybe I'm just going to publish this book myself, because I really believe in it." I still believe in it, even though the no's are coming hard and fast. One day I'm in New York and I say, "Can we meet?" I call my agent and say, "Let's meet." And we go to meet. And I say, "Look, what are the editors at publishing companies saying about the manuscript that they don't like so much? Can you share some of these rejections with me?"

He looked me in the eye and he said, "Kwame, I never sent your book out. I never sent your book out Kwame, because I don't think you want to be defined. You don't want your career to be defined by poetry." And I was like, "Wow." So it's one thing to find your voice and lift it up. But now I'm at a crucial point in my life where it's, "Are you going to allow your voice, and it's power to be defined by someone else." And of course I had never been raised like that. And so I looked him in the eye, and I said, "You're fired. I got love for you, but you're fired." And within six months I had two offers for this novel, The Crossover. Within a year, I had won the Newbery medal. As you mentioned for the most distinguished contribution to American literature for children. Five years, 23 rejections, three agents.

Charlie Melcher:

Classic overnight success.

Kwame Alexander:

Hey look, I'm a 23 year overnight success.

Charlie Melcher:

Yeah. All the best ones are.

Kwame Alexander:

Right! Right!

Charlie Melcher:

I love that. That is a great, great story. And sadly, so not uncommon. In the traditional publishing world, there really is this kind of sense of a hierarchy and certain gatekeepers and certain voices or kinds of stories that are acceptable. That can be part of the canon that can be published, right? And it's hard for new voices to, or things that are really original sometimes to get past that conscious, or unconscious bias to like what sold well before to the established way. And yet now you're on the other side too, right? You have an imprint now.

Kwame Alexander:

I try to make sure that I stay thinking longterm vision and not try to get caught up in trends and what other people are doing. What makes me feel good? What makes me engage? What makes me think this is the kind of book that's going to help young people imagine a better world. If I can say I got a book that does that, I can figure out how to sell it. You can sell anything. So, let me use my heart and my creativity to figure out what to publish and then let me use my brain and figure out how to sell it.

Charlie Melcher:

I think you've touched a really important point because a lot of people in publishing are looking to last seasons sales figures to use that as the criteria for what to take on for next season, and you're saying, "No, let me imagine a future where this kind of story is going to resonate, where this is going to change the heart of some young reader." That's beautiful, important, and more power to you.

Kwame Alexander:

And we just did that. Our first list came out from Versify in spring of 19. 2019. We have four books on that list. We had a book about two black boys who freeze time because they don't want to go back to school. It's the last, last day of summer. And they get their hands on a camera that can freeze time. There really hadn't been any novels featuring black boys for the middle grade audience that were fantasies. We did a Richard Scarry type book, it was a Mexican bordertown, and sort of all the happenings in that town, it's called Vamos, Let's Go to Market. And each of these books won awards at the American Library Association. I think that if you can figure out how to bridge the gap between culture and consciousness and commerce, I think you're doing something pretty special. And that's what I'm trying to do.

Charlie Melcher:

So, I appreciate the power of words, and I appreciate the medium of publishing and appreciative of the work that you do to expand literacy. Can you tell me a little bit about some of the stuff that you're doing as an educator and, and sort of getting more people to read?

Kwame Alexander:

Well, aside from trying to publish books that make kids to read, I traveled to schools a lot. In the past three years, I must have visited a thousand schools. And the goal is to bring the words off the page, to put them on the stage, to make the books come alive for kids. When they come to see me in the auditorium or the cafeteria, they're coming to a literary concert because I want them to leave like, "Yeah, I am ready. I'm ready to read." I built a library in Ghana, West Africa because kids in the village, they didn't have books. So I built a library and I named it after my mother, Barbara Alexander, I'm a willing practitioner of life, of living. I want to get out into the world and live a life that is of meaning and significance, and ultimately will give me something worthy to write about.

Charlie Melcher:

I think it's so important that we start to shift the kinds of publishing and the kinds of books that young people get to read. We're at a moment right now where a lot of people are thinking about racism, police brutality, and a whole lot of important issues that are systemic in our country. How important do you think the role for publishers and for books are in helping to address some of these fundamental problems in our country?

Kwame Alexander:

I think books are mirrors and windows. Kids got to be able to see themselves in books. Kids got to be able to see other people who don't live, look worship like them. How do we create empathetic, connected adults? We nurture and mold and shape empathetic, connected kids. The best way to do that is through the pages of a book. The books will do the work. I took my daughter to a play date when she was five. And when I took my daughter to the play date, I happened to glance at her friend's bookshelf. And her friend, again, is a white girl. And on her bookshelf were no books that featured any character of color, except one book, which is one I had given her. We have to make sure that our worlds comprise, and encompass the real world. And if we don't teach and inform our children, they're going to be informed and inspired by the world.

And that may not be the best way to do it. The mind of an adult begins in the imagination of a child, we've got to create better adults. We do that by making sure that our kids understand how to embrace the full humanity of everyone. And books can do that work. So publishers have a responsibility to make sure that the books they publish reflect the kind of world they claim they want for their kids. Teachers, and parents have a responsibility to make sure the kids have access to books that reflect the kind of world they claim they want for us. Simple as that, it's not real rocket science.

Charlie Melcher:

Yeah. I wonder sometimes about the negative impact of the social media world that we live in, where it's so easy for everyone to stay in their own filter bubble. When all that great technology came out originally, the worldwide web, there was this sense of sort of euphoric utopianism like it's going to let us all connect. We're going to be in touch with people all over the world. And people are very different and ideas will disseminate. And it all of a sudden turned into, wait a minute. All I hear is what they think I want to hear. And it's the opposite of a diverse world of color, of ideas, of everything. And I'm afraid that we're going in the wrong direction in terms of being able to have the kind of plurality and diversity that we're looking for.

Kwame Alexander:

I feel like in this particular moment, I'm more hopeful than I've ever been. I have never seen so many white allies speaking up and speaking out and having difficult conversations in a way I never thought I'd imagined in my lifetime so much so that sometimes I'm a little cynical. For so long you sort of have these interactions that take place with white people who are in your life, and you're like, "They just don't get it. They just don't get it." And then the moment they get it, which is happening now, you're like, "Wow, all of a sudden you got it?" So it's a little bit of cynicism. And so I've tried to reconcile that by saying it's important to acknowledge when other people are making an effort. And at the same time you got to hold them accountable.

Charlie Melcher:

Yes, I am very aware of this. We have a lot of these conversations at the future of storytelling to be completely transparent. They started sort of a year, year and a half ago for us when we realized that we were not as diverse a community as we'd like to be and started to look at why and how we could address that. I'm glad we started that before the last few weeks, but I'm also embarrassed and guilty that we didn't started many years ago.

Kwame Alexander:

A little bit of guilt is okay to have, especially if it's driving you forward in an authentic way, we make mistakes. We got to learn from them. This is a learning moment. It's a teachable moment for all of us. And so the real question is, are we going to maintain the path? Are we going to stay on this journey? And you can only answer that for yourself individually and everyone else, but that's the goal, ultimately.

Charlie Melcher:

One of the things that we think a lot about, and I think it's, it's probably something you think about too, which is just, how do we empower more voices? It's something that we feel has been a challenge in the world of storytelling is that there aren't enough people of color who have the proverbial microphone and why is that? And how do we help? How can that change? Certainly your imprint is a good example.

Kwame Alexander:

Yeah, all I can speak for is myself, and what I try to do. When people ask me, like the New York times asked me, "Why did I start Versify?" And I said, "Because for so long, there's been this dinner party. And at the dinner party at the table, there are 10 chairs and seven of the chairs are filled by the same people, and every now and then they'll allow someone else to come in as a special guest and leave. I want to make sure the entire table is filled. That the entire table and the meal reflects the kind of world we claim we want."

Charlie Melcher:

So what are you working on today? What's the newest project?

Kwame Alexander:

Well, I just finished a book on Muhammad Ali that I wrote with James Patterson and that's called Becoming Muhammad Ali. It comes out October 5th. I'm hosting a new show for kids called Wordplay that debuts in the fall. I got a couple more books I'm working on. A TV show, a movie. I got a lot going on right now. I think the only way that I'm able to sort of accomplish all of these things is that I've got an amazing group of people around me who are as brilliant, if not more brilliant than I am. And I think that's something I try to tell kids all the time to surround yourself with people who are smarter than you, who believe in you, who share your vision. I surround myself with "yes" people. People who say yes to life, not people who say yes to me. People who say yes to life.

Charlie Melcher:

What do you say to young, aspiring authors? What else can you share that would help us storyteller today who's trying to make it?

Kwame Alexander:

Know your worth. So many writers are so excited to be published by a publisher or to be recognized that they don't take the time to know the business and to know their worth. People will try to take advantage of you. They'll try to get as much out of you as you allow them to get out of you. That's just human nature, sadly. So don't let anyone else define your worth for you. You define who you are.

Charlie Melcher:

I was going to ask you a little bit. Are you still involved with NPR?

Kwame Alexander:

Yeah, I do Morning Edition with NPR every month. We'll do a segment on poetry and its power in the community to think about what's happening in the world at that moment.

Charlie Melcher:

That's wonderful. I really feel like finding that way, that you said, to make people excited to read, to get them tuned to the power of words to poetry is an incredible gift.

Kwame Alexander:

Well, I kind of owe you some more gratitude because the NPR thing, my audition for the NPR thing was future of storytelling on Long Island. Was it Long Island?

Charlie Melcher:

Staten Island.

Kwame Alexander:

Staten Island. That was my audition. Anya Grundmann, the VP was there in the audience when I did my presentation.

Charlie Melcher:

Awesome.

Kwame Alexander:

So, that's where it started.

Charlie Melcher:

That is the best story I've heard in a long time. I'm so glad to hear that. That's what we hope to happen at Future of Storytelling is to bring amazing people together from different backgrounds, different media and disciplines, and get them cross pollinating and get them inspired by one another and ultimately have it lead to more collaborations, and just advancing the world of storytelling today.

Kwame Alexander:

Now imagine if you did that with the intent of bringing together people who were from various races, religions, backgrounds, if that was your intent, same function, same institution you've built, but you were like, "You know what? I'm going to do something a little bit different and revolutionary. I'm intentionally going to bring people together, black and white, because I know what is going to happen as a result of this collaboration and the stories that are going to come out of it." We got to use what we have to get what we need.

Charlie Melcher:

Here, here. So, okay, we're going to do that. And you're going to help.

Kwame Alexander:

I'm there. I'm helping you organize it. You let me know my friend.

Charlie Melcher:

I accept that offer and we will be back to you to take you up on that seriously. This has been really great. I appreciate your time. I appreciate your honesty and I appreciate more than anything, your love of words, and of literacy and of using your voice to help a whole new generation of people who will make this world a better place. So, thank you, my friend.

Kwame Alexander:

You're very welcome. And thank you.

Charlie Melcher:

If you found this conversation as inspiring as I did. If you'd like to learn more about Kwame, his writing, and his publishing imprint, check out this episode's page on the FoST website by visiting FoST.org or following the link in the episode's description. Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, please be sure to subscribe to the podcast, give us a review, and share it with a friend. I'd like to give a warm thank you to Kwame Alexander and to our excellent production partner, Charts & Leisure. Please come back and join us again in a couple of weeks for another deep dive into the world of storytelling. Until then, be safe, be strong, and story on.