DG Begbie: Embodying Empathy with Global X-Perience

Charlie Melcher:

Hi, I’m Charlie Melcher, founder of the Future of Storytelling. Welcome to the FoST podcast. Today I’m sitting down with DJ Begbie, the director of Hong Kong-based nonprofit organization, Crossroads Foundation. Founded in 1995 with a mission to connect those in need with those who can help, Crossroads provides aid for relief and development in more than 90 countries. They also help raise awareness about global issues such as poverty, war, hunger, access to clean water, and HIV/AIDS. But they do so in a way that’s completely different from any other charities. Rather than giving a presentation or showing a film about areas of need around the world, they put people in the shoes of those affected with immersive programs that they call global experiences. By employing all the tools of immersive theater, such as live actors, elaborate sets, and authentic costumes, props and carefully crafted narratives that guests can participate in, crossroads is able to elicit some of the emotions and real life struggles of those suffering by utilizing the power of experience to allow participants to feel even a fraction of real life struggles, they’re able to foster true empathy and encourage meaningful change.

Over a quarter of a million people have participated in their global experiences to date, including prominent figures such as former Secretary General of the United Nations Ban Ki-Moon, philanthropist Sir Richard Branson, and First Lady Jill Biden. In fact, for 10 years, their simulations were a regular fixture at the annual meeting of the World Economic Forum in Davos. There, Crossroads was able to give world leaders and top policy makers a revolutionary new perspective on global crises. In the words of the UN’s High Commissioner for Refugees after participating in the day in the life of refugee simulation: “Everything I came here to say, you have just experienced.” It’s inspiring and invigorating to speak with someone who’s truly utilizing the empathetic power of immersive experiences to make profound and positive change in the world. Please join me in extending a warm welcome to DJ Begbie. dj, welcome to the Future of Storytelling podcast. We’re so honored to have you with us today.

DJ Begbie:

It is such a joy to be with you. I love what you guys do, and I love that we get to be walking this road together.

Charlie Melcher:

The feeling is very mutual. So I would love to ask you to start by explaining the kinds of experiences that you create at Crossroads.

DJ Begbie:

I think perhaps the fairest way to commence would be to say what we didn’t intend to do. So we never planned to do these programs as an organization. We’re a humanitarian relief and development agency, so our job is to serve people in need, helping a million people in 120 countries across the world. That’s our background. But the weird thing, Charlie, was that the genesis of these programs, we had a 10th anniversary, I don’t know, maybe 17 years ago. And typical for this area, an anniversary would pass at like a five star hotel fundraiser, but that didn’t feel commensurate with our heart. And so we had this rather unusual idea. We thought, well, instead of doing a five star event, if we brought CEOs from Hong Kong where we’re based to the old Army base, our headquarters, and we strip them of their possessions, we take away their wallet, their watch, their cell phone, and for 24 hours, we let them sleep on the ground and eat with their hands and make roads by breaking rocks with their hands just for 24 hours. Feel a fraction, just a fraction of what it is like for those we serve every day. So we did this once, honestly, I thought they’d run, they’d kill us or both, but these leaders came back and they said to us, this was profound. And so what started off as one twenty four hour experience from that birthed a whole array of deeply immersive experiential programming that allows people just for a moment to step into the shoes of those in need.

Charlie Melcher:

First of all, that’s an amazing story because it’s so exactly the opposite of what every other nonprofit does. When they want to raise money, they pamper plea, they are kind and offer all sorts of inspirational gifts and things, and instead you literally stripped people of their possessions and made them have a very hard labor kind of experience for 24 hours. That’s insane. And the fact that it was so profound for people, why was that? What did people say? How did it work?

DJ Begbie:

Well, I think I should just clarify. It did not prove to be an overwhelmingly successful fundraiser,

But what it did prove and has proven for almost two decades is it proved to be the most profound fundraiser and engagement tool that we have ever seen. If you want to see people connected and then responding to addressing global issues, the very first place that you have to start is help them care. And once people care, then they walk away saying, now what can I do? How can I help? And for us, that’s the ultimate goal of these programs, is allowing people first to feel and then to respond as them to this world and this world’s needs. So yeah, so anyhow, that’s how the programs first kicked off.

Charlie Melcher:

And when you say to get them to care, I mean, normally that’s done by showing someone a compelling video or having someone who has suffered come and speak or perhaps handing them a brochure with some important statistics about the plight of the community you’re trying to serve. Your approach is so completely different than those things. You’re not telling them a story. You are giving them an opportunity to experience it.

DJ Begbie:

When these programs first started, our initial topic was allowing people to try to understand, again, just a fraction of what it was like for those who were in poverty. But then the community, the world came back to us and we actually had people saying to us, look, poverty is one topic. Yes, but what about refugees? What about HIV? What about the environment? What about natural disasters? And these simulations are incredibly immersive. They would be a little bit like a full scale theater production if you were to look at them building a set and a costume. But the thing that is extraordinary is that neither their design nor their delivery is a production in the sense of it being theatrical. There are no thespians, there are no actors who run these programs with us. The people who deliver the programs are themselves, aid workers or people who have themselves gone through and lived it so that the delivery and the message are authentic representations of those in need.

Charlie Melcher:

And so you found these elements that make up for a commonality between people who are refugees. You build a world, a story world or an experience world. Describe what happens when someone arrives and how many people would be showing up.

DJ Begbie:

We have a refugee simulation that is extraordinary. It is horrible, even as it is powerful, as soon as they arrive, the very first thing that we do with the whole set, but like the entrance area, the foyer, we give them a briefing and the briefing they receive very quickly just covers the world as it is. Then in the briefing that they have two other things occur. We give everyone an ID card, and that ID card is to try and help them literally to choose cognitively and emotionally to step into another’s shoes. And then we also give in the refugee run simulation case, a warning as to how to step out if it proves to be too much. I have a sense that all of us have a comfort zone, and we are in control and a comfort zone, and that all of us have a breaking point.

We’re like, whoa, that’s way too much. But in between the comfort zone and the breaking point is our growing zone, our stretching zone. And for us, we always try to aim the level of the simulation at that area so that people are outside their comfort zone, but none inside their breaking point. And so they are quickly ushered in a hurried sense, please quickly, you need to get in it. So they go inside a small barn. So we would have something like 40 participants. So people come into this first barn and the village leader will be there and saying to them, please, you need to leave. The rebels are coming, and you must go quickly. And while this briefing occurs, suddenly we have acoustic grenades, CO2 grenades, they’re thrown into the room. A massive, massive explosion occurs concurrent with that, all the power is cut. And then in the darkness while the explosions occur, there is gunfire and shooting and shouting, and the soldiers flashlights are waving and the guns, and they’re in uniforms and balaclavas, and these soldiers enter through hidden doors all around the set, they’re surrounded.

And then from this barn, you’re then driven out through a minefield, and there’s smoke and there’s aid workers there trying to hurry you through it, but caution you because there are landmines on the ground and they’re evident. You can see them. And then as you navigate your way rapidly, but carefully through this, you then pass to a border. And at the border, it’s an extraordinarily terrifying border. There’s a machine gun nest. There are bright, bright interrogation level lights shining down from either side, and the soldiers are lining you up to pass through. But these are not benevolent, gentle, gracious soldiers. These are horrible people. And so as you are standing there, they’ll be asking for your ID cards. They’ll be interrogating you as to why you’re passing the border. And then they’ll be looking at you and they’ll see that person has got a really nice engagement ring or a wedding ring or nice jewelry or bracelet or necklace, cell phone, whatever it might be.

And so we will literally take these possessions off the visitors at every single level, and you’ll enter this refugee camp and there’ll be tents and there will be more yelling. And suddenly you realize that it just becomes more and more oppressive and it feels crushing. You line up at the medic tent because your son or child is injured, and the aid worker who is there says, we don’t have sufficient medicine for your needs. They were confiscated, but go to the soldiers. They may have the antibiotics that your son needs. And then you go to the soldier. The soldier says to this mother, yes, your son needs antibiotics and I have them, but you have a young daughter, send your daughter to me, and in exchange I will give you the antibiotics. The whole experience stretches over a two hour window. But at the end of the simulation, we say to them very clearly, the simulation is over. And then we get the guests to sit down, and then we begin to process the experience with them. And the very first part of processing is them in small clusters, sharing their own hearts with each other. And then the second part is helping link their feelings through stories to the reality so that they understand what they have gone through is linked to the fullness. And then the final piece is now understanding and caring. How can you we change this reality for those in need?

Charlie Melcher:

Wow. What’s just so powerful about it is to use all of those techniques of really empowering storytelling to basically peel back all the armor, right, peel back all the defenses, peel back all the excuses, peel back all of the ways in which people learn to protect themselves from the reality that is so difficult to deal with, which is, how can we have good lives? And so many people have such suffering, and how can I make sense of that? And so I think everyone has these protective armor that they build up, and this experience just completely strips them of that and puts them in touch with their humanity.

DJ Begbie:

It’s really been evident, I think, particularly for some of those people who, for their whole lives they have led, but when they go through these experiences, it’s just so precious to see within half an hour, it doesn’t matter how big your bank account was, it doesn’t matter how many cars or houses you owned, because as soon as you cross that checkpoint, you were just displaced. And it’s tricky. And I think just as a practitioner, I think we have learned over the years different ways to help people shed their armor and just at each level, it’s trying to allow people to feel

Charlie Melcher:

Well. I was also very struck just by your mentioning the idea of asking someone to give up their wedding ring. I mean, for me, that’s something I never take off. And the act of having to be stripped of that simply physically removing that is a symbol of relinquishing so much. But it feels like you’ve developed so many activities, decisions, experiences that are the equivalent of that, of letting go of things that define you, of things that are part of what make you feel secure, safe, and sort of stripping people down in the course of an hour, two hours to something very soft and vulnerable inside, and that people can come out of that and not be crying in a puddle, but then turn that into some sense of hope or that they can do something positive with it. I mean, I’m curious how that works because it does seem that for some, it might be incredibly depressing to actually be able to empathize with all of this pain in the world.

DJ Begbie:

Yeah, I should say we do return most of the possessions that we take.

Charlie Melcher:

I was thinking that’s how we raised the funds. Yeah, that’s

DJ Begbie:

Right. Yeah. No, initially we actually didn’t take people’s possessions. Initially, we had more of a cognitive thing where they would write down five possessions and soldiers would cross off at the border, those things. But we just found that where it was fictional, there was no attachment. But the instant that you take the necklace your grandma gave you, it really moves you. The reality is that once

I just went about it the wrong way, I kept looking at this world’s needs and saying, look, here’s what you can do. Here’s what you can do. Here’s what you can do. Here’s what I kept trying to say to people before these programs and whatever. Just here’s a problem, do this. And I just realized that it was the wrong way around. There was nothing that drew them to it. And I’ll just say again, I feel so precious. This is such a precious truth that if you want people to engage in addressing an issue or responding to an issue without you being present in a sustained fashion, it has to come from internal combustion. They must first care as you allow people to go through, and suddenly they begin to have that same internal feeling. Then they can empathize with others who are going through and they wish to stand alongside those who are serving. I think personally, I think there’s a deep joy

Charlie Melcher:

I have always for myself, and I believe for others, been most alive when I felt that I was in service of something bigger than myself when I had the opportunity to connect to something that transcended my own petty needs or wants. And it sounds to me like that is what maybe part of why people leave with some sense of joy is because you’re actually letting them tap into an opportunity to be part of something much bigger than themselves and to connect with other people, but really to come out with a sense of purpose of how they can contribute and want to contribute. How important is the debriefing and the communal component of sharing at the end of it? Are people feeling very bonded to one another?

DJ Begbie:

The sharing at the end is critical. It’s a little bit like allowing the steam release valve in a pot, but really for us, if you ask me, I would say to you that the debrief is 50% of the experience. And when people go through simulations like the ones we’ve described, they have real feelings, very, very real feelings, but it’s in a foe environment. And so how do you translate that to reality? The first is allowing them to process their feelings, linking those feelings through testimonies and stories and examples, whatever, to the real world context so that later when they’re watching the news and they see someone who’s displaced, they can link the feelings they had to that person, that person’s context. And so for us, the debrief is important both in establishing the validity of both their feelings, but also expounding on the global situation. And then the second part is then helping take that and convert it to strategic relevant action to who they are.

Charlie Melcher:

Are you finding that this is the kind of experience that relates regardless of the cause? I mean, is it possible to do this for many, many different types of causes? I mean, obviously refugees seems like it lends itself very well. It’s dramatic. There’s need for guns and bombs and crossing borders and all that. Does this work for other subjects as well?

DJ Begbie:

For us, we have a huge range of topics, and so we have activities and the method of delivery is different for each one. So some of them are very immersive in theatrical, some of them are. We design a set that’s based around story of

Charlie Melcher:

People,

DJ Begbie:

And you walk through chapter by chapter just listening to headphones. Some of them are more like a light survey of different types of world need. So for example, we have a trail of world need, which is a 30 to 40 minute survey for families, and it allows them to experience, they go into seven different sets, and these sets are fully themed, they’re fully immersive, they’re sound and they’re smoke and whatever there may be. But each one is looking at another global issue, but in a way that’s accessible to kids and families. So parents and kids will talk through it or teachers and kids will talk through it, and it allows kids to have this 30 minute survey of world need and then come out caring, understanding in light touch ways, and then seeing how they can respond. We have other topics, visual impairment, and HIV. And I’ve actually seen a huge range of different topics that have been conveyed in various ways. So I think the answer to the topics is yes, but I think what I would say is essential for us is this, that if the audience comes out of a simulation but does not have empathy, then that program needs to be adjusted or removed because it is that empathy for us that is that nugget upon entering these. There’s nothing seemingly lighthearted about them. And yet that principle of learning through is still very, very

Charlie Melcher:

Real. I imagine giving people real agency and letting them struggle with some of the moral or personal dilemmas is one of the, I don’t want to say tricks. One of the tools of your craft having to choose between your son and your daughter, that’s Sophie’s choice. That’s an incredible ethical or moral quandary that you’re putting people in. And I imagine it’s those kinds of things that where the stakes get raised very quickly that are part of what creates the greatest empathy or emotional power,

DJ Begbie:

And were these things not based off real stories that are much, much worse. We wouldn’t do them. The goal of our programs is not shock and awe. You can go anywhere for that if you’d like to. The goal is to really make sure that these things are grounded in this world’s needs. I think we are sometimes, at least, I think sometimes I am numbed by some of the stuff I see on television or the video games.

Charlie Melcher:

How can you not be, I mean, it is just so unbelievably overwhelming every day to look at the paper.

DJ Begbie:

Yeah, but I tell you, when a soldier or two are standing in front of you and they are yelling at you and your hands are behind your head and you’re on your knees, it’s hard to be numb in that moment.

Charlie Melcher:

And that comes to some degree from the fact that many of the volunteers who are running it or cast have lived it. They’re bringing their own lived experience to the role, if you will, and that makes it have that authenticity, that integrity.

DJ Begbie:

For me, it is so essential that what drives our cast, what drives our facilitators as they deliver their programs, is both a love, a compassionate care for the participants who are in the room as well as for those that we are remembering and serving, that both of those must be present. So when we train our soldiers in the refugee run, and it’s horrible training. I mean, we have learned interrogation techniques and we’ve learned all sorts of really

Charlie Melcher:

Tough stuff.

DJ Begbie:

But I say to my soldiers, if I cannot peel back all of your actions and find that at its source there is deep love and compassion for those we’re serving and those in this room, then I don’t want those actions to occur. Let me say it in the flip. I’ve had drama teachers from high school say, Hey, I’ve got some 18-year-old kids with some aggression issues. Can I send them over to be your soldiers? And I’m like, those are the a hundred percent wrong people for what we’re looking for. Because at every level it has to be very, very, very caring and a part of that when you’re looking to deliver them a part of that must also be present. If I gave you a script right now of wedding vows and I said to you, here’s a script. I’d like you to read these wedding vows, and you can imagine a dispassionate person, I blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, reading a dispassionate thing, it’s the same script, but it’s not the person who’s in love with your vous or whoever it is, right? It’s entirely

Charlie Melcher:

Different

DJ Begbie:

And it’s the same words. And that’s a hard thing. You can’t force that. You can’t force that on anyone.

Charlie Melcher:

I’m so struck by your descriptions of what makes your simulations, and again, I think that’s such a awkward word, but me too. Your simulation so powerful is so absolutely maps to some of the things I’ve learned from some of the world’s great immersive theater directors and creators, and this idea of caring for and holding your audience friends at Third Rail Productions who do some amazing work, and they talk about that, about how they train the cast to care for and be conscious of how that guest member is experiencing the thing that’s happening in real time. And what’s so interesting is that you’re talking about training someone to be interrogating almost on the verge of violence, but at the same time being able to judge where that guest is and care for them in that violent act or in that threatening experience. And so I’m sure that’s about keeping them, as you said before, in that space between their comfort zone and their breaking point and knowing not to cross either line.

DJ Begbie:

It does seem to me that at the end of the debrief as they come out really that the whole picture is so clear and that there has been such a precious ongoing friendship with these people who have gone through these experiences like you have met one another at a very deep and precious place, and then when you go on, you can bypass positions and plot it and all these other things, and you actually connect as people in very, very powerful ways. So I do think mean one of the ways that we send humanitarian aid is by containers, right? Shipments. We had the head of a shipping company go through, and then later on in discussion, their company decided to allow X number of containers a year to be able to just be called upon as needed to serve. And we’ve had diplomats and dignitaries and princesses and kings and queens and all these various people go through. And the way that you can speak with them, it doesn’t mean that it just is authentic, right? You can speak about real things very often. We still every year where we can, we run a 24 hour session every year, just not often, but it’s sort of for more sort of c-suite people. But often I call it a 24 hour sabbatical where people get to step out and just for a moment, recall the things that actually

Matter in many cases, most to them, things they wish they could be focusing on, but their emails and board meetings and all of those things just pull them away from, and just profound how profound those moments are. Well,

Charlie Melcher:

Stories have always had that ability, right? To get us to connect to what is most human and be able to connect us to one another. They’ve also always had some underlying survival information in them, something that’s very core to our evolution as a species. But here, you’ve taken those attributes and the role of powerful storytelling, and you’ve amplified it to such a degree because it’s not storytelling, it’s story living. You’re letting people have roles to play in these stories, and the experiences are fully embodied throughout all of their senses, and therefore, so much more powerful, so much more memorable, so much more potentially transformative. And I just feel like you have put your finger on something or you’ve been able to figure out a formula that I truly believe is essential to where storytelling is headed. It’s the future of storytelling. We’re literally going from two dimensions to three dimensions, and that’s what you do. You create these real life stories that people get to live in for whether it’s two hours or 24 hours, and it completely changes them. You have a lot to teach us all.

DJ Begbie:

Oh, I don’t know that we feel that way, but I certainly have learned many lessons over the years about how to not do it. Just two thoughts that are just in my mind. One was to say that I’ve often, do you know when you do lifeguard training, the people who are making loud noises and splashing around, those aren’t the ones you have to worry about. No one drowns with loud noises and splashing. People can panic, but they don’t drown. The people who drown are the silent ones. It’s very quiet and it’s, and I think very often in this world, those who are drowning are not the ones whose stories are heard because they have no way to get their story out. And I think one thing that is on all of us is to ask, how can we help those stories be heard? And so even just asking your audience or asking others, how can we find those who are silent and how can we help their stories? How can we amplify their words so that help can come

Charlie Melcher:

Dj, I would suggest to you that actually your work is not even really about the causes that need the attention or the money. The silent ones that are drowning are the audience. It’s the people who haven’t had a chance to let their voices be heard. The audiences have been mute and passive, and we as a collective society of audience members who’ve just spent so much time watching and disconnected and separated and alienated, we so desperately need our voices heard. And that’s what you’re doing, is you’re giving the people formerly known as the audience, an opportunity to come alive and to feel and to realize what they need, which is to be able to be alive and contribute and be empathetic and care about each other.

DJ Begbie:

I think you’re a hundred percent right in terms of speaking to the audience as each guest comes through. If I could be very honest about myself, and I don’t know if this is reflected with any audience members that go through, but I suspect it is, is that very often I really wrestled because I grew up, even as I grew up, I wanted to help. I wanted to make a difference. I wanted to impact people in need, but my wrestle, my struggle is that I felt too small and disempowered. And so then I would do token things. I’d donate a bit here or I’d volunteer a few hours there, but I honestly just felt like I was too small to make a difference, and I struggled because it wasn’t just me. Then I had even an old billionaire come up to me, this dear old man patted my elbow, and he said, I’m so glad other people feel this way, because on my own, I don’t feel big enough to make a difference.

Everywhere I look, people seem to feel too small. And then if I could maybe just tell you a tiny story of a nine-year-old kid that I bumped into. I was running a program in Shanghai, and I finished this program, and a mother with her nine-year-old son came up to me and the mother said, I’ve just received an email from one of the poorest countries in the world. I said, oh, which country is that? It was a nation called Liberia. She said, an email from a friend just arrived that said, tell the kids in your international school that they’re lucky. Most kids in Liberia, their whole lives will never even see a playground. So just tell the kids in your primary school they’re lucky. So the mom did, she read this email and her nine-year-old son stood up and he went back to his mom. He said, mom, that’s not okay.

What do I need to do to give the kids in Liberia a playground? She said, well, honey, you need land. So the kid did a Google search and found out that you couldn’t buy land if you weren’t Liberian. So he went back to his mom. He said, mama, am I Liberian? She’s like, no, honey, you’re not Liberian. He’s like, well, I can’t buy land, so who has land? She said, well, probably the government. So he Googles again, government of Liberia. So this nine-year-old kid writes to the senator and says to Senator, my name’s Ian. I’m nine. I want to give the kids in your country a playground, but I can’t buy land. Could you please give me land? Dude sends email. Dude goes to see if he wakes up, and this lady has replied, dear Ian, thank you for what you wish to do for the children of my nation.

Sure, I’ll give you two soccer fields. And he finds a company that refurbishes old playgrounds, ships them, sends them, he saw phone number, and the CEO says, son, I love your heart, but they’re not free. I’ll let you choose options, but you got to see if you can afford it. So this 9-year-old kid picks the biggest, it’s a two floor. It’s got a two floor slide, it’s got a zip line, it’s an amazing playground. He’s like, sir, how much to send that one? The man said, son, that’s 50,000 US plus 9,000 for shipping. And the 9-year-old kid looked at the CEO O and he said, oh. And he goes back to his grade three classmates and he says to them, it’s not okay that we have three and they have none. And then he goes to grade four, grade five, grade one, two, the school has a fair, and three months later, the playground’s in Liberia. And the last time I spoke to him, he was building schools and medical clinics and more playgrounds. He was 16 or 17 years old. And I looked at this kid and I looked at all these people who had felt too small to make a difference, and I just suddenly realized that although I do feel small and I do feel like I don’t have a lot of skills to offer this world, that actually who I am can be used to make a

Charlie Melcher:

Difference.

DJ Begbie:

And isn’t it wonderful when who you are can be aligned with things that matter most deeply to your heart?

Charlie Melcher:

What a beautiful place to end our conversation. dj, thank you for the large heart that you have and the incredible skills that you bring. Even if sometimes you don’t think there are enough, and all I can think of is how do I help you get your storytelling to more people who need it? So we can talk about that offline. But thank you for sharing.

DJ Begbie:

My pleasure. I think the thing that I would just like to say is that the family of FO is a family of such profound competence and skills and creativity and expertise. Those who are listening to this podcast, those who have spoken on this, just incredible, extraordinary, extraordinary people. So thank you, Charlie, for allowing us to be a part of your mission, to be a part of your purpose. And I just ask that as we go forward too, that we might also be able to keep this friendship, not just even between you and I, but between the audience that’s out there and say, how can we further do this? And if they have any ways that they would like to reach out to us in ways that they can see that fit, then by all means, please pass our details along. Charlie, thank you for this time a privilege.

Charlie Melcher:

DJ, the privilege is mine. Really enjoyed our conversation. And thank you.

I’m Charlie Melcher, and this has been The Future of Storytelling podcast. Thanks for joining me. If you’re a longtime fan of the show, you’ll know that our motto here at FoST is “Better stories for a better future.” DJ and his team are really putting that into practice, so I encourage you to check out their work via the link in this episode’s description. And while you’re at it, take a look at our website at fost.org. You can find more podcast episodes, subscribe to our free monthly newsletter, and learn more about our annual membership program. The FoST Podcast is produced by Melcher Media in collaboration with our talented friends and production partners, Charts & Leisure. I hope to see you again soon for another deep dive into the world of storytelling. Until then, please be safe, stay strong, and story on.